My reason asking for a builder...

[Chris_Martin]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/39720530@N03/

This thing was build in Nov of last year before Tall Pines.

Just recently, it over heated once at a shakedown/track day, but after burping the coolant temps came back down to normal and stayed there. The next weekend, ran 5 stages without issue, then on stage 6, temps way back up.

Assumed a blown HG (basically knew this going into the rally, and figured it would make it), so i disassembled, and found HG's leaking in more than a few places.

Loosening off the ARP studs to pull the heads, the studs were "loose" and tossing an allen key in the studs, i could turn them in 2-3 full turns before bottoming in the block. So HG problem solved basically.

Figured to rip apart the bottom end, toss in bearings, have a look at everything, and some rings...why not the parts are "cheap" and good preventative maintenance now.

As you can tell from the pictures, there's some pretty serious wear happening.

I'd believe that tuning and detonation will cause the rod bearings to wear out...but the Mains are where most of the wear is happening...

Looking for an opinion now, to atleast shoot me in the right direction. I may be over critical, and it is safe to just toss in new bearings, give the bores a hone and some rings. But i'm just not sure.

[STeveD]

I am far from an expert in engine rebuilds, and I would still defer to any expert's opinion. However, these are things that I know and / or believe.

- Subaru actually lists an interference fit for the piston to block bore clearance! Bore A STD is 99.505 to 99.515mm. Piston diameter A STD is 99.505 to 99.515mm.
- I wore out my stock motor at 80,000km and a head gasket leak provoked the rebuild. However, we were having trouble making 260 whp with 19.6psi on the VF39 that spring. Previously the motor had made 292whp on that dyno. The piston to cylinder wall measurements upon disassembly were 0.0065" to 0.0075". (Subaru "limit" is 0.0012".) My tolerances were that of 45psi blown alcohol drag motors.
- My cams, rod bearings, wrist pins, main bearings all looked fantastic. This tells me that stock tolerances are ideal for motors running sub 7000 rpm with no antilag. And that I was using good quality oil.
- You run a restrictor. You should be planning for your motor to max out below 7000rpm if you want longevity. I wouldn't bother tuning it for 8000rpm, and I'd set the rev limit lower for longevity of the motor. With that, you should run near-stock bearing tolerances. Not loosey goosey like some shops like.
- Make sure your builder knows that journals 2 and 4 should get an extra 0.0002" of clearance.
- Antilag destroys main bearings and requires looser bearing tolerances than stock. Plan to rebuild more frequently if you use Antilag.
- I liked my Mahle pistons. No smoking. great power. Ross custom pistons are $$$ and don't come with rings, and I can't say that I see a benefit other than the ultralight wrist pins (which also require special machining of your rods because they're not standard Subaru diameter.) Ross = $$$
- Stock STi cams are amazing. Upgrade and all you'll probably get is lost torque with your restrictor.
- Stock intercooler is amazing. Don't go FMIC with the restrictor that you run. I'd rather add water injection if the rules allow it.
- Have the guy who tolearances your motor do the final assembly. You don't want to be torquing stuff to spec, loosening the fittings off, and then retorquing it at another facility and hoping that the spec held. (Personal opinion.)
- ARP now recommends retorquing the head studs on Subarus running Cometic gaskets after 100km or some such distance. With DOHC, that's a PITA because the head studs are under the cams.
- Spend the coin to upgrade to 1/2" studs. Cesar has done this for Frank, Gord has done this for Yoshio. They should know the trick to make it stick. Then you can use higher torque on the studs without pulling them through the cheap aluminum block material.
- Our 1/2" studs, when overtorqued, did not back off a bit when verifying the torque per ARP's instructions.
- If your bores are damaged and you need sleeves, Cesar does sleeving for about $1000 less than Gord quotes. Both use CNC machines.
- Forged Subaru cranks are cheap from US tuners, or with the club discount at Marinos. It may not be worth cleaning your old one up if the journals are damaged. But then you have to rebalance it from scratch.
- Boxers need an oil recovery system and a bigger oil pan. Especially if you're upgrading your oil pump from stock size. (e.g.: 11mm or 12mm when 10mm was stock.) It's less critical in rally because you don't sustain 1.3+ G's for as long a time as road course guys, but don't risk a $10,000 motor because you wouldn't shell out $600 or $800 for an oil pan that should last the life of the car. Or could, worst case, be resold.
- Motors like long, gentle break ins. I didn't change the oil often enough in the first 1000km of the second build. With four oil changes during the 1100km of my current build, I still found lead in the first synthetic oil analysis after throwing it on the dyno at 1200km. Yoshio asking for 3000km before tuning is probably a very good idea. (Though expensive on competition motors.)
- 3/8" ARP 2000 studs that come with Pauter rods may not be enough.
- I'm probably wrong about at least 3 things I've listed so far, so get other opinions.

That's all I can think of for now.

If you need some 100mm Mahle forged pistons, I have some. After sleeving on the last build, I had to "downgrade" to 99.5mm.

Our club can also get a discount on assembled blocks from Slowboy Racing. PM Robin if you're interested.

[Chris_Martin]

Steve...7,000 or 8,000 rpm? with the restrictor the party is over well before 6,000 rpm.

I usually pull the next gear around 5,500, because all the power is gone.

This is a EJ22T block. So ~98mm bores

I discussed the bigger head studs with Cesar at the time of build, and for the power output planned, We both figured the "stock" arp's were just fine....however i don't think they were installed right.

I am running he IXIY A/O separator, which seems to work well.

I'm working on oil pan mods, much like i hear Frank does.....i'm not affraid of a grinder, welder, and bending some metal.

I know this motor was set-up "loose" as it was destinted to be run hard. However...with the e85, i think the motor tends to run much cooler than it would on gas, and maybe a more "stock" clearanced set-up might have been ideal.

I agree, if they are clearancing the bottom end, let them assemble it, and i'll bolt the heads and junk on after the fact.

I was told when i picked up the motor to run it easy for like 100-200km on junk oil. Change the oil.....and run it like you mean it.....

[Robin]

indeed... like Chris said, the party is well over by 5500rpms...

me too when it comes to the engine builder part as I'm no expert by any means...

On acp's team, i saw the head mechanics go through enough engine rebuilds..... on his old evo4..... and the 4g63 could take a LOT of abuse.

On the rally wrx's especially PGT, most teams running on VP103 fuel with proper engine mgmt would go through at least 1 engine every 4-6 events. Too brutal on internals... I crew'ed for Tim Penesack also and I recall 3-4 engines in 1 year as they were having ECU / engine mgmt issues (early going of the team)... so they leared the hard way.

probably best to talk Rich/dan/or lachute to get their input.... (rally shops)...

[STeveD]

Chris_Martin wrote:
Steve...7,000 or 8,000 rpm? with the restrictor the party is over well before 6,000 rpm.

I usually pull the next gear around 5,500, because all the power is gone.

Okay then... you probably don't want a GT28 RS then. Sure, rotating the intake manifold for a FMIC or using a TMIC would have less lag, but this is the powerband for the HKS GT28 RS on a 2.5L block.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3633/3656711965_1a6a4cd15e_b.jpg


This is a EJ22T block. So ~98mm bores

Pity. The block was modified to take the EJ257 crank, right? Were the cooling channels also modified to take STi heads?



I discussed the bigger head studs with Cesar at the time of build, and for the power output planned, We both figured the "stock" arp's were just fine....however i don't think they were installed right.

It's possible, but we've seen that the aluminum blocks can't take many retorques. The studs are far stronger than the block and the block looses and is damaged.



I'm working on oil pan mods, much like i hear Frank does.....i'm not affraid of a grinder, welder, and bending some metal.

Good! We're also fans of the Cosworth Oil Pan Baffle, which I forgot to mention earlier. Lots of blather at Nasioc about rare occurences of Subaru OE oil pickups breaking from poor welding. I wonder how many broken welds were caused by the shrapnel that ends up hitting the pickup tube, and not the tube causing the shrapnel...


I know this motor was set-up "loose" as it was destinted to be run hard. However...with the e85, i think the motor tends to run much cooler than it would on gas, and maybe a more "stock" clearanced set-up might have been ideal.

Loose necessitates earlier rebuilds. Tight causes failures on stage. The inclination is to lean to the loose side, but you have to be ready to freshen it regularly if that's what you're going to do.


I was told when i picked up the motor to run it easy for like 100-200km on junk oil. Change the oil.....and run it like you mean it.....

That distance is probably fine for the rings to the cylinders,(though my Total Seals stopped smoking after 500km) but I think your bearings would probably be a lot happier with more km if you can get it. Tony K broke in his motor at a (IIRC) Dunnville track day for less $$ than two hours on a dyno. He wasn't letting as many people by as he thought he'd be.

[Chris_Martin]

That's strange..

Garrett/ATP is telling me this thing will be making full boost, and singing by 3,000 rpm.

At this rate though...another stock STI turbo is more budget friendly, especially with all the bottom end bits i gotta buy.

I'm not using the ej257 crank....using the ej22 leggy turbo crank, and old JDM ej20G heads.

This motor was supposed to have total seals......it doesn't...just normal looking "gapped" rings here....

I've always been told that the rings are the only things you need to break in. There is no break-in for bearings etc. And to break in the rings..you gotta get them hot, and out into the bores.

[Chris_Martin]

oh...and i've already rotated the "stock" turbo...and it's FMIC'ed.

FMIC is all custom, with the core behind the grill. Works well and is protected.

the VF23 made 23 psi at or before 3,000. Peak torque was ~3200rpm if i remember, and stayed flat until the boost dropped off like a sinking ship.

[STeveD]

My GT2860 might have a higher A/R. They offer it in a 0.64 and a 0.80 IIRC.

Joe can explain the bearing issue and 2.2L crank weakness better than I can. But please ignore that journal spec that I mentioned... that was for the EJ257. I don't have the 2.2L turbo spec.

I had a very reasonable quote from Slowboy for an assembled 2.2L closed deck shortblock, but it included machining to accept the EJ257 crank, and modification to the cooling channels to flow to my DOHC heads for more power.

Ya know, I'm not sure that the Total Seals are worth the extra money. My piston to wall clearances were just under 0.004" on the last build, so I wanted the Total Seals. They sound like a great idea. (30psi capability, ceramic coating on the piston faces reduces the need for some gap due to the reduced heat transfer from the ceramic.)

OOC, how high of a compression ratio did you go with? Since you're limited on airflow and RPM, it's all about the torque, right?

[Chris_Martin]

ugh..it's pretty toast.

There is not much differences between the older cranks and the newer. the main difference is the thrust bearing location...and i think it is probably a mute point.

[Navigator]

pretty toast? What did you find out?

[Chris_Martin]

Probably crank is gone (it was already oversized), and likely the bores are now worn too big for the pistons. They are still looking at it..

Ripped apart another EJ22 last night, which seems like it might be better with all OEM sized stuff, good bores, and crank looks ok.

However a piston squirter made it's untimely exit, and took a couple nicks from some places...so we'll see.

Going back in a couple of minutes

[JoeT]

Hey Chris,

SteveD and I visited Gord today for some unrelated stuff, but you should have a chat with him about the rings, and how they got that way.

sounds feasible.

[Chris_Martin]

ha!! you can't do anything without the "spys" of SPDA on the case!

Just came from there...he seemed to like the other block, so going that way.

I have an idea why it may have gotten that way...Back when it was first fired, we had problems with some mapping, and the fuel pressure regulator. I wonder if the walls got washed down then, and damage happened. It's just been running like this since then. Admittedly i've never done a compression or leak-down test on it. It ran, made good power, and we called it a day.

The thing always had some pretty serious blow-by, so it probably makes some sense.

[JoeT]

You're funny, spys... LOL, we actually visited GP Engineering next door to Gord's. That place is cool, he custom manufactures block guards to make any engine closed deck. Hummmmmmm... I happen to have a block sitting that could possibly get closed deck...

GP also does ceramic coating, and powder coating on wheels, brakes, etc. Heat dissipating coatings on Radiators, heat retention coatings on headers, etc. etc. etc.

Nice place.

[Chris_Martin]

[STeveD]

[Chris_Martin]

[JoeT]

[Chris_Martin]

[JoeT]

[Chris_Martin]

Got it all together and ran Defi.

nothing wanted to go right putting it in, but got it all worked out.

Still considering the Garrett....the VF39 ain't as nice as the VF23 was :(