EJ25 SOHC Toast?

[westwind999]

Hi

My name is Ron Devries, Tod at work (HCM) suggested that I post here. A few people on here may already know me.

Anyway, I've been having a few challenges with the wife's 99 Forester EJ25 SOHC NA. Last week the timing belt broke so she needed to be towed home. I expect the tensioner failed or one of the idlers as I didn't change them when the belt was changed about 2.5ys and 40,000km ago. I put another belt on hoping that the valves weren't bent but it only ran on 3 cylinders and threw code P0303 which I think is misfire on #3 with a flashing check engine light. I pulled the heads off and things didn't look too banged up but I found that there is corrosion on the top of #1 cylinder. The car has always used a bit of coolant, adding the Subaru conditioner slowed it down to a reasonable rate. I always expected it was the head gasket but this corrosion makes me think that the cylinder liner is cracked.

What do you think? Would this happen with a bad head gasket? I would have expected maybe some corrosion on the bottom of the cylinder if anything. Anyone have a decent EJ25 SOHC for sale? I have a truck and engine hoist so I can pick it up. Any good leads on where to find an engine?

Thanks
Ron

[STeveD]

I would think that the corrosion could only get to the bottom of the cylinder if the rings were leaking.

[JoeT]

Your cylinders look fine, and the biggest problem there was probably a bent valve. You can probably purchase a set of SOHC heads and put in the timing belt assembly, replacing all the idlers and tensioners, and it'll work forever.

Use OEM head gaskets, the only change I'd recommend is to use ARP 11 mm head studs and torque them down to the recommended torque (ARP recommends 75Lbs ft) and let them sit for a night, then retrouque them in the morning.

I think Fourstar had a set of SOHC heads, I"m betting you can get those for much less than a complete engine. The gunk on the top of cyliner 1 is from your head gasket leak. Probably congealed Subaru sealant mixed in.

[STeveD]

Joe, do you know if my STi DOHC studs would be the same as he needs?

If you decide to go the head stud route, I have a set that were torqued only for one installation. $60?

[JoeT]

Yup, the only difference between what you have and the other 11mm kit is the size of the washer. So no problemo using the STI stud kit.

[westwind999]

I'd like to agree that it's not rust, it would make my life simpler. I put a bit of oil on it to see if it would wipe off. I turned the motor over a couple turns to see if it would hang up on anything.

I attached a picture of the bottom of the cylinder, why does it look so much better?

If I add studs, can I still get the heads on while in the frame or do I need to lift/tilt the engine?

[valheru]

Not to highjack this thread, but where do you guys get your ARP head studs and are you using the 260-4701 or the 260-4702?

Also if Ron doesn't take your studs Steve I would be interested in them.

[STeveD]

Back when I ordered them, it was from Mike @ InnovativeTuning.com

[JoeT]

I also have a full set of studs that was on the car for 2 months for sale. So no worries, if you want a set. When installing studs, yes it can be done with the engine still in the mounts.

The way it should be done is:
1) Clean all the mating surfaces, ensure they are flat
2) Put the head gasket on the block
3) Put all the headstuds and hold in place somehow in the holes in the heads, keep protrusion to a minimum.
4) fit heads onto the block and apply pressure to let it seat onto the block eyelets (guides)
5) by hand, screw in each of the studs, there is a hex key hole on the top of each stud so to torque them down to the seat.
6) Use lots of assembly lube, and thread the nuts on each of the studs
7) torque down to 25 lbs ft using the Subaru Torque pattern, then 50 then 75.

Let it sit for a day, then retourque back to 75 lbs ft.

Do not over torque or the studs will pull out of the block, then it's a whole different story.

Hope this helps.

[westwind999]

It seems the 260-4702 studs are the ones I would need for a SOHC. Not sure what the difference is though.

I found an 02 Impreza 2.5 SOHC for a fairly reasonable price. The cam cover and cam gear are damaged on one side. The cross reference I looked at shows it's different but it looks the same. Can I make it work with parts from my 99 SOHC?

Thanks

[westwind999]

Perhaps a little more of a stretch, would a EJ22 from a 2000 Impreza work?

[JoeT]

Yes it can be made to work, but you'd have to use the cam and crank pullies from your outback, since the cam and crank triggers are different.

Not worth the hassle, less power and torque.

[westwind999]

Is the EJ25 from an 2002 Impreza easier? I think maybe the MAF sensor business changed so I can swap the intake?

[JoeT]

yes, EJ25 from a 2002 is almost a direct bolt in.

Swap manifolds and put your's on, then plug everything in. You'll be good to go.

[westwind999]

So I have two main candidates now, the 2002 Impreza EJ25 and I found a 2003 Baja EJ25 close by. The Impreza motor is damaged, broken valve cover and bashed in oil pan. The oil filter is bent over but the base looks ok. (It doesn't have the coolant lines running to the filter like my Forester has?) The Baja motor I haven't seen yet but is a bit cheaper. There was no comment about anything being broken.

What do you think of these two candidates? Pretty much equal to swap? Can I use head components from my 99 on these if say the rockers are damaged?
I see some listings say 'will fit auto only", why would that be?

Thanks for your help.

[westwind999]

Well I bit the bullet for the 2003. It's in pretty good shape besides a couple broken plastic bits. The plan is to swap my manifold over. The 2003 has an EGR port so I guess I just need to plug the hole?

[JoeT]

While both engines are out, save yourself some headache, and take a look at the "Crank Trigger", see if it's a 6 position one or a high Rez version.

If they are different, now's the time to swap over the cam and crank triggers. Yes, you'll have to plug the EGR's on the heads.

[westwind999]

Thanks for the comment.

I'm going to pull the timing covers off and replace the belt and tensioner. I'll check the sensors while I'm in there.

[JoeT]

westwind999 wrote:
Thanks for the comment.

I'm going to pull the timing covers off and replace the belt and tensioner. I'll check the sensors while I'm in there.

Not the sensors, the "Triggers".

Trigger: Toothed wheel attached to the main timing belt pully. They are completely different between the Auto and Manual.

[westwind999]

The weather isn't exactly cooperating with my spare time. Anyway, I was looking up part numbers on rockauto to see if there is anything different on the 2003 motor VS the original 99 motor that I already bought parts for. The only surprise is the timing belt. They show that a 2003 has a different belt even though the length, width and number of teeth are the same.

Can I use a belt for a 99 on the 2003 motor? I don't want to do this twice.

[JoeT]

In 2003, they went from a maintenance cycle of 80K (I think) to 160K. No problem in using the new belts.

[STeveD]

Found this in a post on another site. Can't speak for the company:

http://www.crosstownengines.com/other.php

[westwind999]

The continuing saga:

The 2003 motor now sits where a 99 used to. I changed the timing belt/tensioner and idlers. The crank and cam sensors and triggers look identical so I didn't change them.

I have run into another difference though. There is a tube at the rear of the engine that is different. I thought I would just take the stuff off of my old engine but it broke, I'm not sure what it's called or what the best way to change it over would be. Attached are a couple pictures, one shows the old tubes to the right of the 2003 motor tube. I'm guessing it's part of the PCV system.

Let me know what/how I need to change this. If I need to order something, what would it be called so the parts guy knows what I'm talking about?

Thanks for your help so far.

[JoeT]

I'm assuming that you're pointing to the throttle body coolant lines, right?

The angle of the top picture isn't very clear actually and it's hard to tell what you're referring to. If you can edit the photo's in MS paint or something equivalent, and add arrows or circle the item you're talking about, it'll be easier for us to help you.

But if it's only the rubber tubes from the crossover pipe, it goes to the throttle body coolant passages.

The other pipe on the left is the PCV and goes in on the side of the throttle body as well, into a nipple with a hex looking thing around it.

[westwind999]

I'm on dial up right now because my internet provider sucks so downloading pictures takes forever.

Maybe I can describe it.

I'm talking about the tube on the left, not the coolant tubes for the throttle body, they look OK.

One picture has the 99 tube beside the 2003 tube for comparison, I think you can see my finger at the top. I added the second picture to show just the 2003 parts. The 99 has a T with two tubes that go to the intake or something. The 2003 only has one small tube. I think I need to adapt the T to the 2003 but the tube sizes look a lot different. I was tempted to just hack it up and hope it worked right. I really don't know why it's different.

Thanks

[Navigator]

1,2 or 3.?

[westwind999]

Thanks for the numbers.

I'm really only concerned about #1 (at least right now)

It appears to need to go to two locations based on the old hose. How do I best do that?

Thanks

[JoeT]

The #1 Hose comes from the vapour separator that's built into the block. It's an emissions thing. At the very least it should be connected to the actual PCV valve located beside the throttle body. On certain models, there was a Y connector which led to the intake box.

Route it either directly to the TB and plug up the intake box hole, or use a T connector and route it to both places.

FYI: This will not set off a check engine light if it's routed to atmosphere, but keep in mind, if you do that, you'll be getting strange engine smells coming through the vent, and you must plug up the PCV at the throttle body and airbox.

Hope this helps.

[westwind999]

Thanks, exactly the info I needed.

[westwind999]

Good News (for the most part)

The motor is in and running last week. I used the PCV system from the new motor and blocked off the extra hole on the air box.

I do have a tick or rattle now that I didn't have before. It almost sounds like it's inside the cabin, not a lifter tick but similar. It only happens at idle when stopped at an intersection. The slightest touch on the throttle makes it go away. I was thinking I rerouted something against the fire wall and it's tapping against the metal but I can't seem to find it.

Any thoughts?

Thanks
Ron

[JoeT]

When in neutral, gently rev the engine and listen carefully for the sound to resonate. Start at 1000 rpm and go up in 500 rpm incriments keeping it steady at the incrimental RPM's until about 3000 rpm.

If you can replicate the sound at different frequencies, it's easier to find. My guess is, you have a heatshield that's mildly torn at one of the mounting points. It makes a clicking sound as it rubs against itself.

[westwind999]

The odd thing about this sound is that it seems to be louder in the cabin than under the hood. I was originally thinking it might be a heat shield on the exhaust pipe but it doesn't seem to be. It might be a heat shield that's mounted on the floor above the exhaust. I'll keep looking.

Thanks

[westwind999]

I think I found the rattle. The air box mounted on the throttle body is rattling. If I put my hand on it the rattle stops. I'm going to try to shift it around tomorrow.