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Thread: H&N Support Devices

  1. #21

    Re: H&N Support Devices

    Copied and pasted from SFI 38.1:
    9.0 PERIODIC REVALIDATION
    Test reports with successful test results must be submitted to SFI at least once every 12 month period following the date of the initial design validation test for each model of Head and Neck Restraint System manufactured by the participant. If multiple test reports are required to obtain all test results, then the earliest test date shall be used to determine when the periodic revalidation reports are due. Also, SFI shall retain the option to conduct random audit reviews. SFI shall purchase the product on a commercial basis and test for compliance to the specification. The submitting manufacturer shall reimburse SFI for all audit costs.

    10.0 CERTIFICATION OF COMPLIANCE
    Upon demonstration of successful compliance with all the requirements of the specification and the self-certification program and upon entering the licensing agreement with SFI, the manufacturer may advertise, present and offer the Head and Neck Restraint System for sale with the representation that their product meets the SFI Specification 38.1. Continuing certification is contingent upon the following additional considerations: (1) the product shall be resubmitted for testing following any change in design, materials and/or methods of manufacturing not specifically excluded, and (2) periodic revalidation test reports are submitted when due to SFI.
    SFI claims they will purchase the product and re-test it periodically. Whether they actually do that or not... I have no idea. But I would think the threat of it would be enough to keep most manufacturers in check.
    Devices must also be recertified after any changes in design. How well that is enforced, I have no idea.


    I am very interested in what restraint you end up with!
    Me too! :-? It turns out, we might have no say in the matter afterall...
    2006 OPRC Novice Champion
    2006 OPRC Production 2 Champion

    Right now, someone somewhere is practicing, and when you face him, he will beat you.

  2. #22

    Re: H&N Support Devices

    Here's a quote which I completely agree with. Particularly the part in bold.
    Quoted from: http://www.catchfence.com/html/2005/mt111005.html

    ... It struck me that a SFI certification is valuable to a degree, but, that it's not truly a performance measure. It is, in fact, an endorsement, but, it's an endorsment that a particular piece of safety equipment will do a particular thing under a particular set of test conditions."

    "So, it struck me that the defined test protocol was wonderful in terms of repeatability, but, SFI tests are so narrowly defined to be repeatable, that the point becomes passing the tests at, potentially, the expense of performance out in the real world under real conditions. The simple fact of the matter is, an auto racing incident is a massively complex situation. The kind of crash, for example, that I might be involved in in my racing car on a road course is going to be very different than the kind of incident I might be involved in in that same exact car at a performance rally out in the woods."
    In order to understand how this applies to head and neck restraints. It is nessesary for you to understand what forces are applied to the neck in a crash.

    First, there is Neck Tension, and Compression. These are vertical forces. Tension is the force pulling the head upward (this is the primary cause of basal skull fractures). Compression is the opposite, it is a vertical downward force. These two forces are measured in Newtons.
    Second, there is Neck Flexion, and Extension. These are known as Bending Moments, and they are measured in Newton-meters (Torque). Flexion is the amount of force trying to bend the neck straight forward. Extension is the force trying to bend the neck straight backward.
    There are many other forces involved, but these are the most likely causes of neck injury.

    Now, if you're thinking, you might ask the question: "But in a frontal car crash, there is no upward force on the neck. So how can Tension be the primary cause of injury?". Good question. It's because Tension, and Flexion work together to cause injury. Picture a zero degree frontal impact. The neck bends forward due to Flexion, now the head is pointing forward, and the force from the impact actually IS pulling the head "upward" and causing Tension on the neck.

    So, the idea behind reducing Neck Tension in an impact is pretty simple actually. Just keep the head as upright as possible. Theoretically, it's probably possible to build a device which reduces neck tension almost down to zero. It would be unusable because it would basically involve completely immobilizing the head.

    That is basically how the HANS and Hutchens devices work. When the neck bends forward, the tethers limit how far forward the neck can bend. Thus keeping the head relatively upright and reducing tension. The difficult part is to do it without unduely sacrificing mobility under normal circumstances.
    These two companies seem to be in fierce competition with each other. It appears to me, that they are trying to reduce Neck Tension at all costs, simply for marketing purposes. The amount of Neck Tension that causes injury is 4000N. Both HANS and Hutchens now have that down to ~1000N. They continue to try to improve that number, simply to outdo each other. But at what cost?

    Both HANS, and Hutchens have never released any testing results which show any data except for Neck Tension.
    Go back to the bolded quote above. That's exactly what I feel is happening here. These guys seem to be trying to improve test results, while possibly sacrificing real world performance.
    I do have evidence of this, but I won't post it publicly.


    So, if I had to make a choice right now. I would definately choose the Leatt Brace. So far, they are the only company who has enough confidence in their product to publicly post a complete set of test results. Their neck tension results are not as low as their competition. But it is still well within the margin of safety. They have stated that if they wanted to reduce that number further, they could have, but it would sacrifice performance in other areas.
    I believe the Leatt Brace has the best real world performance, in any/all types of impact. Not to mention the various other smaller advantages over its competitors.

    Quoted from: Leatt Brace website
    The Leatt-Brace™ not only limits neck tension, but reduces other neck forces too.
    Quoted from Karl Ebel:
    May it be known that our intention was never to have the lowest Fz (tension) otherwise our test results would have shown this. Quite the contrary, our company's philosophy has always been to provide the "Gold Standard" for neck protection, which means the best protection for the head and neck in all impact cases, catering for all forms of motorsport with the least restriction to the user.

    Complete quote here.
    2006 OPRC Novice Champion
    2006 OPRC Production 2 Champion

    Right now, someone somewhere is practicing, and when you face him, he will beat you.

  3. #23

    Re: H&N Support Devices

    Here's something VERY interesting that I just found out! I wish I'd known this a year ago, it could really have influenced my picks in the WRC pool.

    Seb Loeb did not drive for a factory team in 2006. Which meant he was not required to wear a HANS device. It turns out he chose not to wear one during several events.
    A good example is Cyprus, a rally known for its very tight and twisty roads. Loeb went without a HANS device for that event and beat Gronholm (who was required to wear a HANS) by 20 seconds.
    However, in Finland, where the roads are much straighter, the disadvantage is less. Marcus beat Seb by over a minute.

    I just find that very interesting...
    2006 OPRC Novice Champion
    2006 OPRC Production 2 Champion

    Right now, someone somewhere is practicing, and when you face him, he will beat you.

  4. #24

    Re: H&N Support Devices

    Is that why Subaru is so slow? ;-) Their drivers must be wearing an extra-ginormous big and clumsy HANS.


    Stephen - I drive Blue Subarus of the rally and track varietals.

  5. #25

    Re: H&N Support Devices

    Matt, thanks for all the updates. I will have to get a restraint system this year, it seems to be getting tougher to pick though. This thread is gonna get pinned at the top, it has alot of good info.
    Ivano D.

    SPDA TREASURER

  6. #26

    Re: H&N Support Devices

    Looks like the Hutchens Hybrid has been approved for use by NASCAR.
    For the past 2 years, the only device they've allowed has been the HANS.

    2006 OPRC Novice Champion
    2006 OPRC Production 2 Champion

    Right now, someone somewhere is practicing, and when you face him, he will beat you.

  7. #27

    Re: H&N Support Devices

    July 13, 2007? Why the wait?
    Ivano D.

    SPDA TREASURER

  8. #28

    Re: H&N Support Devices

    There's no exact reason stated anywhere...
    But it will be allowed during testing effective immediately. Just not yet during competition. My guess is the delay is to allow all the teams that want to change, to have time to make whatever adaptations to theirs cars are needed, and get used to the new system before trying to compete with it.
    2006 OPRC Novice Champion
    2006 OPRC Production 2 Champion

    Right now, someone somewhere is practicing, and when you face him, he will beat you.

  9. #29

    Re: H&N Support Devices

    Hey Wedge, I don't know if you already have a H&N device but I have a defNder if you (or anyone else) wants to take a look at it.
    Track Mart Inc.

    Your neck is worth it.

  10. #30

    Re: H&N Support Devices

    I would like to see it JayC, Ill send you a message.
    Ivano D.

    SPDA TREASURER

  11. #31

    Re: H&N Support Devices

    Is CARS going to recognize SFI 38.1? Last I heard, it was only FIA homologated devices?


    Stephen - I drive Blue Subarus of the rally and track varietals.

  12. #32

    Re: H&N Support Devices

    I've been bugging several people at CARS for years. There is no way they'll ever accept SFI 38.1.

    But the good news is that the FIA is in the process of rewriting their standard. Once that's done, they should be able to accept almost any device which provides adequate protection.
    So I'm holding out until then before I make my purchase.

    BTW, there's a fantastic magazine article here.
    It compares several devices, how easy they are to use, comfort, price, ease of getting in/out of the car, etc. It makes a point of NOT trying to compare safety. Since they are only comparing devices with some kind of approval, so they say each one has already been deemed 'safe'. So the purpose of the article is to find all the differences between each one.
    2006 OPRC Novice Champion
    2006 OPRC Production 2 Champion

    Right now, someone somewhere is practicing, and when you face him, he will beat you.

  13. #33

    Re: H&N Support Devices

    I have used a HANS all last year on oval tracks. I have a Defender now. I wish they had been available when I bought the HANS. Much more comfortable. Call J C at trackmart to take a look.
    http://www.can-alignment.com
    http://www.facebook.com/CanAlignment/

    SPDA Race and Time-Attack Scrutineer
    CASC-OR Chief Instructor
    SPDA Race Ambassador

  14. #34

    Re: H&N Support Devices

    wedge wrote:
    I've been bugging several people at CARS for years. There is no way they'll ever accept SFI 38.1.
    I was talking to someone yesterday and I was told that CARS is a member of SFI and therefore should recognize SFI. Anyone know if they are members or have a link?
    Track Mart Inc.

    Your neck is worth it.

  15. #35

    Re: H&N Support Devices

    CARS lists only FIA and ASN Canada on the Links page.

    http://www.carsrally.ca/CARSRally/Default.aspx?tabid=37

    Helmet, harness, roll bar padding all list the FIA standard first.

    SFI therefore lists CARS as an "Affiliate" on their website.


    Stephen - I drive Blue Subarus of the rally and track varietals.

  16. #36

    Re: H&N Support Devices

    Some good news from CARS released today:

    <quote>NRR I A.7: Head and Neck Restraints –wording modifications
    Rewrite first paragraph: “Each competitor must wear a head and neck restraint system which conforms to FIA standard 8858-2002. It is also strongly recommended (required January 1, 2010) to use homologated tethers that are identified by an FIA 8858-2002 label sewn on them. The head and neck restraint device should be considered as an ensemble which involves the seat, the harnesses, the head and neck restraint unit, its tethers and helmet.”

    Insert new 2nd paragraph: “Effective April 1, 2009, competitors may wear the Hutchens Hybrid device, made by Safety Solutions. (This device has been approved for use by CARS based on projected FIA approval of this head and neck restraint device in 2009.)”

    Original 2nd paragraph retained as paragraph 3.</quote
    2006 OPRC Novice Champion
    2006 OPRC Production 2 Champion

    Right now, someone somewhere is practicing, and when you face him, he will beat you.

  17. #37

    Re: H&N Support Devices

    After CARS announced they'd be allowing the Hutchins Hybrid, I ordered mine right away. And it just arrived today! Here's a quick review:
    First impression is that it's a nice looking unit.

    A test fit in the car with the belts tightened down, and you really don't notice the device at all. It's like it becomes part of the seat. At first I thought I felt some pressure down on my shoulders from the c/f, but then I realized I was only feeling my harnesses. It really does just vanish, like it's not even there.

    I noticed that SSG sometimes got in the way when trying to close the quick disconnects. Which slowed me down trying to attach everything. But that should improve with practice.

    After adjusting the tethers to fit, I could turn my head and have a full field of vision. I could turn far enough to see the B-pillars. I'm glad now to have the SSG, when I tilted my head to the side, that was fully tight before my helmet touched the rollcage (which has been an ongoing problem in my car). I figure those are a decent alternative to having a seat with the side head supports.

    So those are my first impressions. My first event with it will be Lanark this weekend. So we'll see how that goes!
    2006 OPRC Novice Champion
    2006 OPRC Production 2 Champion

    Right now, someone somewhere is practicing, and when you face him, he will beat you.

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